When Matt was diagnosed with kidney cancer last year, he learned a lot about how scary and isolating pain can be. In this episode of The Happy Wanderers podcast, Matt (who is now cancer free!) and Sunaina talk about how well-meaning words of encouragement added to his pain, and how people can offer support without accidentally causing more suffering.
When Matt was diagnosed with kidney cancer last year, he learned a lot about how scary and isolating pain can be. In this episode of The Happy Wanderers podcast, Matt (who is now cancer free!) and Sunaina talk about how well-meaning words of encouragement added to his pain, and how people can offer support without accidentally causing more suffering.
Read more about how to support your loved ones with care and respect.
Sign up for Matt and Sunaina’s mailing list for new episodes and 5 word-for-word scripts to instantly defuse any fight.
Visit GrowMoreJoy.com for more helpful resources.
Thank you and happy journeys!
The Happy Wanderers Episode 11 - What NOT to Say to Someone in Pain
Sunaina: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Happy Wanderers podcast. I'm Sunaina. And this is Matt. And today we're gonna be sharing a pretty personal experience, um, something that we've been through last year and that we're still going through with the hopes that this can support anybody who is struggling through something right now, or loved ones who are wanting to support that person who's struggling.
Matt: About this time last year I was diagnosed with kidney cancer and, you know, incredibly [00:00:30] scary, incredibly sudden. And, uh, you know, within like a couple of months, I had my kidney removed, and that was almost a year ago now. And, uh, my, I've almost like completely recovered physically.
Sunaina: Cancer free.
Matt: Yeah, cancer free. Cancer free.
Uh, however, um, I've realized, uh, that my emotional, mental recovery, you know, has not been so simple [00:01:00] and direct and it's something I still struggle with. And, you know, looking back, I think there are, there were times where I just felt so alone and so scared. And, you know, even though I was surrounded by people, you know, by friends, by you and, you know, family, friends and [00:01:30] loved ones, and, and they did their best, you know, to, to support me.
And sometimes I think the things that people were saying to me we're just so incredibly painful to hear. Um, they would say things like, Everything's gonna be okay, or don't be scared. I know, you know, I know, it's gonna work out. You're [00:02:00] going to be fine. Um, I had a doctor prescribe me Xanax, you know, or told me, Hey, I'll give you Xanax.
You know, just people just telling me, don't feel this, don't cry. Do this. Feel better. Just smile. Be grateful. It's funny because as I'm saying them now, it's like, okay, that doesn't sound so bad, right? They're just trying to, to comfort me and support me. But at the time [00:02:30] it was like infuriating. I
felt so angry. I felt so alone. I think during that, during that time when I would hear those things.
Sunaina: And just to give some context, the way we discovered this cancer was, pure luck. Matt had a pain in his side and we didn't know what it was. So he went to get some imaging and it turns out they found the cancer in that imaging.
It wasn't...
Matt: The pain was [00:03:00] constipation.
Sunaina: I didn't know if you wanted to share.
Matt: I'll be honest, yeah. The pain was constipation. It had nothing to do with cancer, but fortunately it led us to, you know.
Sunaina: To finding it.
Matt: To finding it.
Sunaina: It was totally a coincidence. And the doctors told us, you're so lucky because kidney cancer is the type that can grow and spread and is deadly.
You just, you can't, once it spreads, like it's just, it's one of the high, highly fatal forms of cancer. And the fact that we caught it early, we were able to take it out as far as we [00:03:30] know that cancer didn't spread. That's what we hear from every doctor.
Matt: Yeah, everyone told me, you're so lucky. You're so lucky. You're so lucky. And it's hard to feel lucky. When you're still going through surgery, when you're still, I mean, I, I just, I'm still afraid that it's gonna come back. Um, and, uh, and so I don't feel lucky all the time. Uh, and so yeah, hearing that over and over and over again. Uh, is a little bit maddening, infuriating, all those things.
Sunaina: And so let's talk [00:04:00] about why it might be maddening, because we objectively know that we are lucky.
Matt: Yeah.
Sunaina: If we hadn't found it, it would've grown. We would've lost you.
Matt: Yeah.
Sunaina: Um, and in the moment, I remember there were about 24 hours. When we thought we were going to lose Matt, we were. Matt wasn't going to be able to see his daughter grow up.
We weren't gonna be able to grow old together because we didn't know what it meant that he had found cancer in his kidney. Only later on when we met with specialists, did we hear that if we get it out in time, it's stage one. If it didn't spread, you have a high [00:04:30] chance that everything's gonna be okay.
But for a while, we went through the throes of that existential... you know, the worst news you ever wanna hear with a young daughter not being able to see her. It was horrible.
Matt: I had amazing care, amazing support. I had probably the best case scenario that you can get when you're dealing with a serious illness like cancer.
And, and yet despite that, despite receiving amazing care, amazing support. It was [00:05:00] still awful. It was still terrible, physically, mentally, emotionally.
Sunaina: And when people told you you'll be okay, you're lucky. You should live in the moment now. You should be grateful. It was really hard to hear and so I think that's what we were going to dive into now and, and I think when Matt and I were speaking about this, what's coming up for us -- why it was so hard for him to hear these things is because it was ignoring his emotional journey and or ignoring his emotional experience. I think that when we were processing this together, Matt [00:05:30] shared that he, he always just imagined that we would grow old together. That, um, that he would see his daughter grow up, that he would get health problems, but it'd be later on in life, you know, in his old age.
And then to see at 38 to have this, to have this scare of cancer, it shook his whole world perspective, his life perspective. Right. Matt, you were saying that, you were coming in touch with the fragility of life, the fragility of your life. That is a huge thing to [00:06:00] face, and he's in the throes of that, processing that.
And so for somebody to say, don't feel bad, be happy, be grateful, it's... you feel alone, right?
Matt: I was experiencing probably the greatest amount of fear and sadness in my life. And when someone was telling me, you know, I'm, I'm kind of paraphrasing, paraphrasing. Don't feel that way. Be [00:06:30] grateful, be hopeful. It's like I never felt more alone on, like, I felt even more alone.
Sunaina: Like they were saying it was wrong.
Matt: Yeah, they were saying -the message I received was all those feelings, those intense most, the most powerful feelings you've ever experienced in your life: they're wrong. You shouldn't be feeling that way. And man, I was so angry at that, that implication that like, how dare you?
That's how I felt. How dare you tell me how to feel? [00:07:00] Don't tell me how to feel because you've never been through this. Even, I mean, you know, people go through all these different experiences, but all of our, the, all of our pain is unique and that situation was unique to me. And so for someone to tell me they knew what I needed to be doing, I didn't know what I needed to be doing, but I was trying to figure it out and, and someone telling me, you know, do X, Y, Z was not helping with that.
Sunaina: Yeah. Yeah. So, and I want to also take a moment to [00:07:30] think about what those others may have been going through when they were trying to support you. Or is it okay if we go there?
Matt: Haha, yeah. Yeah. Okay. I could not have done this, you know, six months ago, I think closer to a year ago because I think the pain was too great.
But now, enough has passed, time has passed. I, I feel capable of doing this now.
Sunaina: So when we look at the loved ones, that even the doctors, the family, the friend, the doctors who are telling you all these things and you were [00:08:00] hearing, you shouldn't be feeling what you're feeling. It's wrong to feel what you feel.
And you were hearing these things and now we can kind of take their perspective and say what was going on for them. And my guess would be, They loved you so much, cared for you, the doctors cared for you so much. Your friends and family loved you so much, and it was so hard for them to see you suffering, that they were desperate to do anything to help you feel better.
And in our lives in this culture, what we've learned to [00:08:30] do to help people feel better is to reassure them. It's gonna be okay. Or to give advice. You should be doing this instead. You know, do go learn mindfulness, you know, learn to live in the present. Appreciate your life. So that's what we learned. That's all we know.
And so our loved ones were doing their best, that they knew how in that moment. We're all doing the best we can in that moment to reach you and give you that comfort and support in the best way they knew. How does that [00:09:00] seem resonant?
Matt: Even when people were saying things to me, you know, when I was at my most scared.
Uh, I knew what they were trying to do. Mm-hmm. I could recognize how they were trying to support me, reassure me, give me advice, but they also weren't, I could recognize also that they weren't trying to understand me mm-hmm. When they were saying these things. And I think that's just what I desperately needed was, was some understanding just someone, people [00:09:30] to be okay with being there with me weherever I was. And just like allowing me to process that, that this whole experience, I just, I think I desperately needed that and every time somebody would just kind of gimme advice or reassurance, I just kind of like checked out. I'm like, okay, I, I can't, I can't deal with this. I can't accept this.
Sunaina: Mm-hmm. There's disconnection.
Matt: Yeah. Au like immediate disconnection. I still, I still go through it, you know, I still go to doctors and they still tell me this thing. [00:10:00] I'm just like, okay, whatever. You know, let's just get this over with.
Sunaina: Yeah. So we're going to take a quick break now, but when we come back, we're gonna talk about what loved ones can do. What actually did help Matt through his hard times, what helped him and what loved ones can do for, for people who are struggling or suffering through any, any type of pain, whether it's medical related or it's, um, other types of loss like divorce, breakups and and so on. So stay tuned, we'll be right back.
Matt: Hey guys, this is where I would usually invite you to join our [00:10:30] newsletter at GrowMoreJoy.com/newsletter. This is where we send out all of our best material, our best advice, our newest episodes, everything that we have to help you learn how to grow a happier, healthier, more connected life. But I'm not gonna do that. Just gonna sit back and relax and wish you a wonderful day.
Sunaina: Welcome back. Uh, we were talking about Matt's experience with cancer last year and how painful that was in general, and how when he heard certain things from friends, family, doctors, it hurt a little bit. [00:11:00] He, he so wanted to feel understood.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Sunaina: And some of the things he heard helped him, made him feel more alone. And so I wanted to ask you, Matt, if you can look, think back to that time, what are the things that actually helped that friends and family and doctors said?
Matt: There were definitely some people who offered support that meant so much to me. Um, I know we had one dear friend offer a prayer. Um, you know, she like wrote this prayer for me and sent it to me, [00:11:30] and that meant a lot. Um, that meant a lot to hear it. And, um, yeah, another friend, uh, He just kind of was there with me, asked, we talked on the phone a few times and you know, he was just asking me, how are you feeling?
How are you doing? And um, you know, I think it helped me process what I was going through. And it was just nice to have someone be there with me.
And of course you [00:12:00] were there, you know, you, you, you were there just through everything. Um, you know, I could not have done it without you. Um, and, and you know, just, I think having family members who were just expressing their love and care all the time, uh, I, I really needed that.
Sunaina: Mm-hmm.
Matt: So I think those are the things that stand out to me. And actually, you know what, one of the thing is we have, uh, you know, a dear group of friends who also, we kind of organized a call together. And so we all got on [00:12:30] a call and, um, and we just kind of caught up. It had been a little while andso, yeah, I shared what I was going through, but everyone also shared what they were going through.
So it wasn't just about, you know, it wasn't a pity party or anything like that. It was about connecting and that was extremely just supportive. Yeah, I felt so good, so cared for.
Sunaina: So grateful for those friends.
Matt: Yeah, me too.
Sunaina: If [00:13:00] you guys are listening, thank you.
Matt: Shout out.
Sunaina: Yeah. And so what do you think about these things? So a friend who, the poem that she wrote you was specifically for your surgery to watch over you during your surgery. Cause I know you were really worried about that.
Matt: Yeah.
Sunaina: We removed your kidney. It was a big deal.
Matt: Yeah.
Sunaina: Um, your other friend, just, just listening to you asking how you're doing, how you're feeling, and just, just being there.
And then the circle of, of friends catching up and just listening. What do you think about all of those things was helpful?
Matt: Yeah, I mean like on the surface [00:13:30] it sounds like the same thing, right? Like it might, it might sound like, okay, someone told you, you know, wrote a prayer for you. How is that different from saying like, everything's gonna be okay?
Oh, baby. I think the key difference is that these forms of support that helped me so much, the, one of the big things that was different is that they were invitations. Right. They were offering that support, but it was an invitation and they were, made it very clear. I [00:14:00] think in all cases, like with the prayer, it's like, I hope you feel better.
Sunaina: I wrote this for you.
Matt: I wrote this for you.
Sunaina: If you want it.
Matt: Yeah. If you want it. And, uh, of course I did. Yeah.
Sunaina: Mm-hmm.
Matt: And you know, when we, even when we did that group call, it was, um, there was, I think they asked me, would you like to do this? Would this be helpful to you, would, would this be welcome? And so I said Yes.
And so we did it. And I think it ever throughout the time they were like, check in with me also. How are you doing? And, and so it was just very [00:14:30] sensitive to my needs. And you know, when I was talking to my friend, like that whole process was him just like asking me, what do you need? What can I do for you?
Sunaina: Mm-hmm.
Matt: And um, and you know, and sometimes I think some people, some people wanted to talk and I just needed space and, you know, if I could express that, It felt great. You know, I felt like I could take care of myself.
Sunaina: Space meaning you didn't wanna talk to anyone?
Matt: Yeah, I didn't wanna talk to someone. Um, but I think when I, so just to compare that, you know, when people are telling me, you need to do [00:15:00] this, you should do this, whatever.
That's not an, that's not asking me anything. It's just telling me this is what you need to do. And so I, you know, it's just like my needs felt irrelevant. And, um.
Sunaina: Your feelings too.
Matt: My feelings, yeah. Felt irrelevant and. And, uh, so that was, that was the hard, hard thing to experience.
Sunaina: So for people who have loved ones that are going through a tough time right now, for whatever reason, what can they do to support their loved ones?
By the way, before you [00:15:30] share, I would like to say that this idea of saying it's going to be okay, it wasn't welcome to Matt. He didn't want it. But I often want that, like when I'm going through a hard time, like I even ask Matt, can you please tell me everything's gonna be okay? And sometimes he can tell me that sometimes he can't.
I also ask him, are you worried? Because I know you worry about things less than I do. And so if he's like, Matt's like, I'm not worried then I feel better. Like I, I seek that reassurance, but I know I [00:16:00] need it so I can ask for it. So we don't want to say, that you shouldn't reassure people. We don't want to say that you shouldn't give advice because sometimes that's what people are looking for.
So really wanna make that very clear. It's just, in Matt's case, he was having his own emotional journey and needed that space to process and he wasn't looking for reassurance and advice. He was looking for presence and understanding.
Matt: Yeah. Now all of this is, is coming from our experience, my experience. [00:16:30] However, I think a lot of people, and I, and like we were saying about, you know, we do this with our daughter, with the people we care about, we want to offer support, and we do the do it almost instinctively. And I think we're often unaware that we can cause suffering. We can cause pain in the people who are already suffering. Like whether it's someone's going through cancer or whether someone's going through a breakup, a divorce, or a loss of [00:17:00] a, of a loved one.
You know, we, we desperately want to help. Right. But I think, you know, the area where we get in trouble is when we...
Sunaina: We assume we know what that person wants.
Matt: When we assume that we know what they want, whether it's advice, reassurance, whatever. Sometimes it might work. Sometimes that might be exactly what they need. But sometimes it's not.
And if they're hurting greatly, like the way I was. It can add to that suffering.
Sunaina: Yeah. At worst it can add to that suffering at best it causes disconnection. [00:17:30] So you're wanting to connect and be there with, for your friend and
Matt: Yeah.
Sunaina: You're assuming they need something, you give it to them. If you happen to be wrong, there's more distance and disconnection, so, so I guess what we're saying is it's not possible to know what somebody needs, only they know.
And you can just ask.
Matt: Yeah, you can just ask. And I think being in this experience, it made it so clear to me. How much of a difference it made to be asked to, you know, how people could support me. And so I try and [00:18:00] remember that from the other position. And so yeah, we offer this, you know, as an invitation to anyone listening to you all.
If you're trying to support someone, you can ask what do you need? And. And so I'd say that's, that's the big, the big difference in, in the support I got. That's, this is a big difference I think you can make when you're supporting someone. If you're not sure or like, you know, I think in some situations maybe it's hard to ask, you know, maybe you're not in contact..
Sunaina: Or it's awkward.
Matt: Or it's [00:18:30] awkward. Um, you can always preface whatever you're saying with, I hope.
Sunaina: Mm-hmm.
Matt: You know, I think if you can say, instead of saying, Everything will be okay. You can say, I hope you feel better soon.
Sunaina: Mm-hmm.
Matt: You know, I hope things turn out okay. Mm-hmm. And the difference is you're not telling someone it is going to be okay. You know, you have to be okay with it. You're saying, this is my wish and I hope it supports you, but [00:19:00] if not, that's okay. You know, that's, it's your choice to accept this or not.
Sunaina: And you can frame everything as an invitation, right?
Matt: Yeah.
Sunaina: Like when our friend wrote you that poem, she didn't say, read this poem before your surgery.
She said, here is a prayer that I wrote for you. Please do with, do with it what you will.
Matt: Yeah.
Sunaina: You can offer, you know, I have, I have some ex if you, if you wanna give advice, you can say, I have this doctor that's helped my other friend with cancer. Um, I'm happy to make an introduction if that's something you're [00:19:30] interested in, you know, in instead of saying, do this, do that, it's an invitation.
Matt: Yeah.
Sunaina: Would you, is I have, would you like some reassurance right now? Would you like to hear what I feel? Ask the question, um, and listen to the response.
Matt: Yeah. I think it makes a world of a difference.
Sunaina: Yeah. So thank you guys for tuning in today. We are going to be going more in depth on this topic in our, in our, uh, blog post to to be coming.
So please sign up for our n our [00:20:00] newsletter at GrowMoreJoy.com/newsletter. So that you can get more information and, um, support on how to help people who are suffering or how to help yourself if you're the one who's going through the pain and suffering right now.
Matt: Yeah, and if you have any questions about any of this or you want us to cover other topics, you know, sign up for our newsletter and then reply back and let us know, you know, we read them. We'd love to know how we can support you guys in the future.
Sunaina: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.[00:20:30]